Ch12 - p26

March 17, 2017, at 12:00 AM

Jivi, stop trying to be Crescian enough to make up for a construct full of Alds. No one is watching, you can be as even-handed and open-minded as you've basically already shown yourself to be.


  1. "Jivi, stop trying to be Crescian...No one is watching"

    Oh really? Alds and a Sharte do. What if someone betrays Jivi's "thought crimes" to Crescian authorities? Especially now that there occurred a popular uprising against the totalitarian Crescian regime. A subject of a tyranny cannot be too careful, or else he/she will not survive for long. So keep up the appearance of supporting the party line, Jivi.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  2. Duane: "I'll be back!" - And he is now!
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  3. Nice! Duane is coming through with a lecture on economics to the blinkered communist kid.
    Sam Martin on
  4. Nice! Duane is coming through with a lecture on economics to the blinkered communist kid.
    Sam Martin on
  5. Man, Jivi must have not seen that coming, just like me in this comment section.
    CrusaderDeleters on
  6. Sette, off stealin' Jivi's hat again.
    LKP on
  7. @LKP: "Sette, off stealin' Jivi's hat again."

    Did him a favor, too - he no longer looks like a wannabe Confederate douche.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  8. I just find it indefinably pleasing to see the zombie who was being mocked for his mindless nature exit his shackles with tacit magic and then surprise his mocker with a hand on the shoulder and a mouthful of intellectualism.
    Sengachi on
  9. Mad you realize the uprising is about the Queen being too soft on Alds not a revolt about wanting Peace or switching to capitalism or the state being too tyrannical. They are revolting because they wanted to use a WMD on the Aldish. Its not a revolution against Tyranny.
    Kaz on
  10. Cool last panel! Have we ever witnessed Duane booting up before? What a contrast.
    Fawnet on
  11. Not getting into political discussions,just a small nitpick: I think there should be a comma between "abstraction" and "for". It took me a while to understand that "for" is used as "because", before that I read the phrase as "money is a dehumanizing abstraction for greed", and the rest didn't make sense anymore...
    Rob on
  12. Poor Jivi doesn't realize that Duane can't kill himself. He should spend some time learning the opposition's beliefs before he jumps to conclusions.
    Navarus on
  13. Um, Cresce isn't communist. Communism is the maintenance of a classless society which doesn't require a state. Cresce is a hegemonic aristocratic, militarised, nominally constitutional monarchy with strong military hierarchy and the facility for huge amounts of informal power and influence. it resembles Soviet 'Communism' in that everything belongs to the state. The discourse against greed is an instrument of state power, and there may be nominal equality, but we have already seen Crescians with nothing, and Crescians with everything.
    spen cyrrh on
  14. Erm..
    So what kind of experience does Sette have with ogre spunk?
    Perhaps I don't want to know..
    Melarec on
  15. Hair flip!
    Watchit on
  16. From what I've seen, while the states in Unsounded have established a national identity, they're still firmly pre-modern authoritarian governments of one sort or another. i.e. power still seems to rest with a military-controlling aristocracy of some kind. Certainly it seems the state has far more power to intrude into peoples' lives than historical states of similar types, but trying to ascribe modern concepts (such as the 20th Century Capitalist/Communism/Fascist triad) to those states is... Let's say anachronistic. Also the Soviet Union had money, and communist thought in general has different views on its usefulness to society. Opposition to the concept of money is a far older position than when Marx arrived at Communism. Usually tied to theology.
    Gcat on
  17. @Kaz: "they wanted to use a WMD on the Aldish"

    That is a conspiracy, not the uprising.
    The uprising in Ethelmik was against the liquidation of town.
    Besides, the Queen and the part of government still loyal to her are only aware of the uprising, but not of the conspiracy. If anything can make them clamp down on any dissent, it would be the uprising. Actually, once the conspiracy is either defeated, or is successful, it will be even more important for common Crescians to avoid any appearance of dissent - whoever is in power by then, they will be hunting for "enemies of the people".
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  18. @spen cyrrh: "Um, Cresce isn't communist."

    Of course not. It is Soviet. Communism cannot possibly exist, the allure of this purported utopia was never anything more than mind manipulation tool, a lie intended to lure the masses into allowing the nomenklatura to take over. If you consider Crescian ruling class, you will recognize them as nomenklatura.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  19. @spen cyrrh I dare to suppose, maybe when they had the money system they faced the risk of having a French-like revolution, where the bourgeoisie fuelled the people's fight against the aristocracy, so that after the fall of the "power by nobility", the "power by money" could thrive better than before. It would make sense I guess that the Crescian aristocracy at the time saw that and reacted to that by forbidding money to ensure their own power, while designating an other evil the people could focus their attention on. But well at least, the crescian population actually lives relatively well
    Mykh on
  20. @Melarec: "what kind of experience does Sette have with ogre spunk?"

    Sette is just being naively foulmouthed. If you read the comic attentively, you would have noticed, that Sette is pretty much innocently ignorant about reproductive anatomy and intimate practices.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  21. @Mykh: "forbidding money to ensure their own power"

    Cresce actually has money - fiat money, like paper money. However, there are real world analogies - medieval China and Japan both restricted development of entrepreneurial classes. The result was that both stayed medieval, until capitalist societies knocked on their doors - rudely. This rude awakening jolted the Japanese to mend their ways on the spot, thus preventing subjugation by foreigners. China, however, persisted in its old ways, resulting in what is now known as "The Century of Humiliation" at the hands of foreign powers.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  22. That 6th panel of Sette just shocked and disgusted that someone wouldn't take what was there for the taking, and that doing so doesn't take skill and planning. Wonderful!
    Val on
  23. "Maybe he ain't uncrazy"
    That's a nice way to put it...
    GreenArcher on
  24. Love Sette's face in the second panel. Really nice dialogue too.
    Linconclusive on
  25. Jumpscare!
    Turtle Lord on
  26. God, I can handle most comment arguments fine, but it feels like there's never so much tautology thrown around between one another as when you add economics to the mix. If you want a burgeoning (read: newbie) leftist's line, Crescent is a centralized (perhaps feudal? absolutist?) state that apparently resists independent overthrow by capital. From what we've yet seen, there's not even a pretense of workers having access to the value produced by their own labor- it is instead controlled by a strong state under military/aristocratic control, as spen cyrrh and Gcat said. Capitalism has different inherent contradictions and vices.
    a middle-of-the-road reader on
  27. What's that? The comment I made just now contains tautologies itself? Sorry, can't hear ya. Anyway, enjoying the comic- eager to see where Duane and Jivi (and Sette) take us with this.
    a middle-of-the-road reader on
  28. Hell even in the Hippie communes the leaders always ended up better off than the members.
    Hornet on
  30. I enjoy seeing the relationship which is being built between Matty and Sette. He seems to see more in her than most of the others, and even admires her, though he could just be naively impressionable. I like to think she stole the hat of Jivi as he was mean to Matty - she does not attempt to steal Chitz anymore, does she?
    Karel on
  31. Whether by money or un-money, in fiction or non-fiction, there's no real world representation of "value" in any society. Value is an impotent, irrelevant intangible. Technology and services are the only purchasable commodities beyond raw materials, and they have no intrinsic meaning. Tautologize all you like, there's no getting out of that except by lying to yourself.
    TachyonCode on
  32. I mean, you can certainly claim responsibility for something, a task or something material - but that's all just playground politics and attitude, unless your society actually practices your philosophies.
    TachyonCode on
  33. I'm glad that someone noticed the stealing of Jivi's hat! Now that I see Sette continually holding her hand behind her back, I can tell that it's true! Good stuff.
    Roy on
  34. @Mad'Monster'Maniac Interesting, I vaguely knew about their relations to europeans/usa at the time, but not that this had something to do with capitalism/aristocracy. Gotta look this up deeper
    Mykh on
  35. @LPK I didn't even notice the hat! She's good.
    Tehbeefer on
  36. seem's to me that cresce is gonna have a coup via bell before revolting.
    Asshat on
    change on
  38. Sette's face when she says "Takin' is workin'!" shows her exasperation with people who don't understand how vital Shartes are to the economy and how hard they work to keep all that money from piling up in one spot and ruinin' everythin'.
    Ophidiophile on
  39. Thank you, Duane. Now cast him new pants.
    Dude on
  40. Stealing a hat mid-sentence off a head without any damn, with that art she deserves the bloody hat.
    Roo on
  41. @TachyonCode: "there's no real world representation of "value" in any society. Value is an impotent, irrelevant intangible."

    Value is merely an abstraction of labor spent producing goods and services. How does barter, which predates money, work? Both parties to the deal agree, that the amount of EACH PARTY'S OWN LABOR producing their own product is worth what the other party is offering in exchange. Alternatively, labor can be exchanged by a time-banking arrangement in a community, which, again, assigns numerical worth to each of the participant's labor. Furthermore, an alternative to paper fiat money can be used, for example, bitcoins. Now suppose that, instead of bitcoins, units of some fungible commodity is traded. In old Japan, koku, a quantity of rice enough rice to feed one person for one year, was used as a basic currency unit. Nowadays, for example, methane (natural gas) can be traded online by weight (not by volume!) electronically, even down to retail transactions, whether performed via a credit/debit card, of by a mobile device like a cellphone (e.g. Nokia implementation of cellphone-based payment system). Yes, value is an intangible abstraction, but, rather than impotent and irrelevant, it is powerful and indispensable.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
    HELLO on
  43. The way Jivi talks about Duane reminds me of the way some talk about people with mental illnesses and disorders. Sette is like the close family and friends of us dealing with that crap. It may take a while, but eventually they are able to separate the person from the illness. Sorry, not really relevant, but I just liked the similarities
    Light of Mary on
  44. "maybe he's ain't uncrazy" No one is totally sane. We all have our own brand of crazy. But I also recall in chapter eight Duane said a line something like, "I crossed madness and cam out the other side. But it clings to my heels" So maybe he is crazy maybe he ain't. His situation is unfortunate, and ssael forbids self-slaughter.
    Despair on
  45. "I crossed madness and cam out the other side." I remember this too, anyone remember what page it was on?
    Eragon Auditore on
  46. And nobody notices poor little Matty, dejectedly walking away...
    Butter on
  47. a few pages late but... YES BACK TO THE MAIN CAST! I -really- wish I could have seen the first night with Duane aboard. did Quiggles try to bash em? I would poke him. a few times. Also I think Sette's forgetting something important about when she fell; that the khert had opened to let Turas's soul through. And we're still not sure how the door got 'jammed'. could have been Murkoph's doing for all we know. I think that it being through Duane's shadow was more of a perception thing than anything. Also I think Jivi is a believer in Crescian idealism just like Duane is in Alderode's; a bit er, unorthodox. that is, they clearly flout their own laws when it becomes necessary.
    99redragons on
  48. Sette sure works hard. Keep it going!
    Jenny on
  49. @99redragons: "they clearly flout their own laws when it becomes necessary"

    Jivi and Duane sure do - good for them!
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  50. 2 points: 1 Jivi clings to the reigning ideology because he was seriously abused as a youth, as in within the last week, but is decent and has a need to hold onto something, since the worst among his abusers believed in nothing at all. 2 Cresce is Commie, but perhaps a better analogy is Sparta, only with stronger kings. Anarchists, Spanish Revolutionaries, the leeches in PASOK, Bolsheviks and Mensheviks and Maoists and whatever was going on in Albania or the NORKish nightmare or even the tropical, racist (Bautista, along with perhaps more than half of the country is at least partly black, whereas no one on the politburo is now, and blacks are not permitted into the capitol in significant numbers) gulag that is Cuba, had no trouble appropriating it for themselves. Also, Cresce uses scrip, it does not forego money. That's a pretence to maintain social control, as a good Marxist would tell you (and Marxism requires the enlightened to maintain social control, which is why it is always, everywhere, so problematic - one cannot guarantee rule by the best.). Remember, we've seen scrip. Even thoroughgoing lefties like Ursula K. LeGuin grappled with the money issue without coming up with a satisfactory answer. Without money, all one has is barter or force. The late Rose and Milton Friedman wrote a really nice book about money, and why the abstraction evolves in almost any society with a surplus of food.
    Honzinator on
  51. At first I thought the hat was an oversight, but Sette actually keeps holding a hand behind her back.
    o3o on
  52. @Honzinator: "2 points:"

    Good analysis. Sparta also had money - intentionally awkward to use, massive pieces in small denominations, made from base metal (supposedly simply iron bars), rather than gold and silver.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on