Ch12 - p74

July 17, 2017, at 12:00 AM

Ah, finally Jivi spills a bit of where he came from. Wonder why no one liked him... next page on Friday!


  1. Barnacles do not "eat" anything! Teredo shipworms (who are not worms, but bivalve mollusks) and gribbles (who are not insects, but crustaceans) do. Fix it, Ashley! You are supposed to be knowledgeable about ships, so do not disappoint us.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  2. So cool to see most of our heroes together and playing off each other. And I love the uncolored panels for Jivi's flashbacks
    Knightofv on
  3. @MMM: Ever heard of biofouling? (Also, notice that he also uses the word "eating" for rust and weather erosion, so he's not being exactly literal here.)
    Rex Vivat on
  4. @Rex Vivat: "Ever heard of biofouling?"

    Heard of it. Saw it. Removed it - nasty work, whether hauled or afloat, but someone has to do it, otherwise you lose speed. Fouling is distinct from structural deterioration. Fouled piles do not crumble, hollowed out ones do. Fouled pontoons do not sink, holed ones do.

    "he also uses the word "eating" for rust and weather erosion, so he's not being exactly literal here"

    Barnacles are outside, they foul. Shipworms and gribbles are inside, they eat. Jivi Flask was a deckhand, not even a cabin boy. He would know such things from being immersed in the nautical lore. this should be reflected in the narration. The notion of barnacles "eating the hull" destroys credibility beyond any suspension of disbelief. And it can be easily corrected by replacing the word "eating" by the word "fouling". Regina Flask commands a privateer. Speed is essential for her vessel. Fouling cannot be tolerated. The vessel needs to be regularly careened, hauled or drydocked.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  5. I have to note something I'm sure many of us have recognized which is the similarities between Sette Duane and Jivi. They all try to be the *ideal* person there society has taught them to be but do circumstances outside their control they are ostracized.
    Crazy- on
  6. I never got the feeling Jivi was a rebellious kid. He's stuck up to the slavers but to every other authority figure he's shown perfect respect and especially respect for the law of his society
    Crazy- on
  7. @MMM Maybe they have barnacles that eat wood, it is really not that important.
    Yuri on
  8. @Yuri: "Maybe they have barnacles that eat wood"

    If you redefine words in your narration, how can readers be sure of what they have just read? If the word "barnacles" means shipworms and/or gribbles, rather than barnacles, how can we be sure what every word of narration means? How can we know what happens and with whom? We certainly did not come here to read an absurdist play, you know. It is best to stick to conventional meaning of the words.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  9. FFS MMM trying hard enough to be as annoyingly pedantic as possible? Maybe stop to think that our boy Jivi wouldn't be concerned with scientific semantics before demanding that Ash "fixes" her comic to your liking. Just stop.
    Val on
  10. Ashley knows. Jivi doesn't.
    Mac'Mobster'Manias on
  11. Bah, for all his grating of this webcomic, 3M's greatest achievement is consitently showing up and berating every update. All he really is is a big tsundere.
    Slothful Tanuki on
  12. oh boy another update with MMM starting a fight in the comments
    Swooce on
  13. I guess if all it takes is to change the word "eating" for "fouling" and it's more accurate we can give this one to MMM. Stopped clock and all that... :)
    Nestor on
  14. @Mac'Mobster'Manias: "Ashley knows. Jivi doesn't."

    Jivi does not know? Landlubber!
    Does he even tell the truth about his past?
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  15. Reckon the reason is simple: Racists
    Kathleen Hartman on
  16. These are kids talking. Jivi is trying to explain his shipboard life to Matty, a very little kid who understands about eating, but doesn't know nautical terms such as 'fouling.'

    It's not just that one word... notice that just about all the language is simple. He does say 'barnacles' but that's his only slip... and I would bet that what Matty hears is "Fighting to keep the BAD THINGS from eating the hull." If he had said 'fouling', Matty would have heard, "Fighting to keep the BAD THINGS from DOING SOMETHING BAD to the hull."

    Which might actually have been a more accurate impression! Except that Jivi does succeed in communicating his main point, the answer to Matty's question: what it felt like.
    Sessine on
  17. At this point I'm not even sure I'm occasionally posting under his pseudonym anymore. That first post is exactly the kind of stuff I'd say for him... In other news, ahw Ashley, get Jivi a girl friend who tells him about hair styles. By come friday!
    flamewise on
  18. Jivi, lad, the world's been hard on you. Even those who read your story can't seem to give you a moment's peace.
    Knows what comes on
  19. Jivi says "eating" in each instance as a colloquialism. Considering the informality of the conversation, as well as his generally casual and nonchalant personality, it is entirely appropriate.
    Alphalogic on
  20. Quote: "I...went to my cousin's in Ulestry"

    It sounds to me like there is a long story behind those three dots. I wonder when we'll hear it.
    Some Old Guy on
  21. Guys, please stop. MMM does not start fights. You all start fights with him. Kindly knock it off. MMM has done nothing wrong in the comments for this page, and I for one was not annoyed with his remarks at all. /IMHO
    Luke on
  22. DEMANDING something to be changed because of his own insufferable pedantry IS "doing something wrong".
    Dos on
  23. It is clear that some of the more human-like Senet Beasts occasionally envy what humans can have and do. Before she was trapped, Illang apparently gave in to her human-like maternal desires, even to the point of hurting human children she desired to adopt. She has the additional tragedy of apparently being a one-off creation. The Gods at least created a complete population of sea/air folk, made at all the equivalent stages of life that humans would age into, so they could have families. I wonder, however, if Jivi's "mother" lost the 'baby' girl the Gods made for her, (perhaps killed by storm wary sailors), as well as having grown tired of the the companionship of the macho airheads, decided to live like a human for a while, and adopted an orphaned baby boy. The more intelligent water women must know each other well, so our new heroine is no doubt an old friend of his foster mother. Interesting stories ahead...
    RyGuy on
  24. least, I have generally had the impression that Regina Flask was a waterwoman pretending to be human, but that may have simply been a weird dream on Jivi's part.
    RyGuy on
  25. Kudos to "Crazy" for noting "the similarities between Sette Duane and Jivi" and for putting them better than I would have [I'd've said they try to fit into society and defend its institutions despite being outcasts in their own Ciceronian ways - rather like much of the British Army in the days of the Wars of the French Revolution]> As for bivalves fouling ships ... don't they mess up the wood itself a bit when they anchor, or are they like limpets, gluing and suctioning in? I thought they had "roots"? What, MMM, you old salt, a I getting wrong. Inquiring minds want to know, and so does mine!
    Honzinator on
  26. @Dos "DEMANDING something to be changed because of his own insufferable pedantry IS "doing something wrong". "

    I'll leave it to MMM to clarify whether he was making demands. For my part, I don't think every imperative sentence with an exclamation point strictly qualifies as a demand, especially on the Internet where there we cannot rely on cues derived from tone or body language. It's entirely possible that MMM meant "Fix it, Ashley!" to be friendly and supportive. In fact, to me it seems clear he is merely attempting to raise a concern that he deems important, and he's made a suggestion for a simple fix: Replace "eats" with "fouls." If his claims about the issue in question are true, then IMO he makes a reasonably compelling case, though I'll admit that I think the fraction of the audience who would have their suspension of disbelief destroyed by this must be fairly small, and so I wouldn't hold it against Ashley if she decided it wasn't worth her time.

    In general, I think MMM consistently gets way less charitable a response from other commenters than he should. It's not like he's just trolling. He's actually making a concrete suggestion here.
    Luke on
  27. @Honzinator: "As for bivalves fouling ships"

    They can and they do. Those that attach themselves to hard surfaces by byssus (sea silk is made of byssus of some bivalves) would certainly foul a ship hull. These are the ones that GLUE themselves to the surface. Those bivalves that BITE the wood with the valves of their shells, are the ones that damage the structural integrity of wood by boring through it. Barnacles, however are crustaceans. Their last larval stage finds a surface to glue themselves to with secreted glycoproteins. Then they metamorphise into adults, who surround themselves with a real calciferous, rather than chitinous, shell. Scraping them off CAN cause abrasive damage, but you either only scratch the surface of paint or other coating without scraping it through, or you are replacing the paint or coating anyway.

    "Inquiring minds want to know"
    1. Bivalves that destroy: shipworms.
    2. Crustaceans that destroy: gribbles.
    3. Bivalves that foul: any bivalves with byssus.
    4. Crustaceans that foul: barnacles.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  28. MMM is biofouling these comments and it's eating my desire to ever read them again.
    Yawgmoth on
  29. I was struck, looking at the uncoloured panels by how much Jivi resembles Avatar Aang from the cartoon series "Avatar". It's mostly the bald head and the attire, but I could easily list some personality similarities as well. Just so nobody has the wrong impression, I'm not accusing Ms. Cope of being derivative. Jivi has enough stand-alone elements to make him her own unique character.
    Zepp on
  30. I know them feels, Jivi.
    Onasaki on
  31. I absolutely love the abstract illustrations in this comic (Is abstract the right word? The ones that are visual metaphors rather than stylized realism?), they're always so fucking metal. Also I for one enjoy barnacle trivia.
    Kolya Dante on
  32. Didn't really notice at first, but those grapes look like eyes.
    gluteclench on
  33. As someone casually reading through quite a number of different webcomics while not having english as maternal language the possible lapses or inconsistencies naturally do escape me quite often. However, while the corrections concerning maritime lifeforms might be accurate, i still got the impression that the former sailor boy is in a constant fight against elemental and biological decay of whatever hull or equipment might be affected. So i may have the advantage to be more interested in the content and less in a perfect choice of words. As long as i get what seems to be meant i am fine with whatever words do transport the message to me. Still, while corrections might be considered necessary, i believe its the authors choice to ignore or implement them. While one might be interested in perfecting something already good, others might accept a webcomic for the mixture of art and entertainment it seems to be for me. I hope my choice of words was appropriate and sufficient to clarify my point of view without being too arrogant or otherwise insulting to anyone. With or without "perfect" words, i really enjoy this webcomic, its world, characters, setting and story. Great work and even greater that this huge project is not abandoned mid-story, as sadly is the fate of too many great stories begun and never finished.
    Shalghar on
  34. Mad'Monster'Maniac, you've been rather blunt for the last... whoa. Three years? (At least, that's how long I've been reading 'round these parts.) You seem to often forget that many people have no problem with bluntness as a matter of course, but many others do. Everyone who has a beef with Mad: Dude. Stop being the "You don't enjoy what I do, therefore I hate you" person. So many people have come and gone (in the comments), and yet, this person you accuse of "being pedantic" or "starting fights" has not (since I've got here) said anything to anyone unless spoken to directly, and obviously loves this comic, otherwise, why would he be here for years? Pax, friends. This story is sad, and exciting, and funny, and awesome. Let's share it.
    Holaved on
  35. Holaved: Yeah, agreed. I used to be annoyed by some of the inflammatory things that M&Ms says, but he's just one person and easy to ignore. What's harder to ignore is when 20 people start picking fights with him and the whole comment section goes to bird-tits.
    t_z on
  36. Damn, this comment section became an angry encyclopedia sooner than I expected. Can I at least grab some popcorn before it starts up again?
    Trouthover on
  37. Since everyone's giving their psychiatric evaluations on MMM, I figure I might as well join in. I do not think, under any circumstances, that MMM attempted to troll this comment section. I do think, that instead, he's just an incredibly literal person, and that's (understandably) driving everyone insane. MMM has attempted to correct me on multiple occasions for light-hearted or theory-based comments, and while I was annoyed at first, I realized that his responses were entire based in the most literal definitions of the words I was using. Is he annoying at times? Yes, undoubtedly. Is he a hateful troll? I don't think so. And I'm willing to bet that he'll respond to this comment with a paragraph that completely deconstructs my theory. Honestly, I'd be slightly disappointed if he didn't.
    Turtle Lord on
  38. @Turtle Lord: Would you be disappointed if I DO respond, but DO NOT deconstruct your theory?
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  39. Really, I'm just surprised nobody's commented on the fact that Jivi says that his cousin was probably going to give him the winery (before he was framed), but then turns around at the end and says his cousin expected him to be a thief too. Is Jivi dissembling, or is he still looking at the incident with passionate (but never questioning) assumptions of a child? I feel like it's the latter. Jivi doesn't seem that devious, to be lying to Matty like that.
    Holaved on
  40. As i have seen and experienced quite a lot of family drama in my life, Jivis "turnaround" seems quite normal to me. I have often seen alliances break up so harshly that the accused party instantly had the impression that his former trustworthy allies never were allies at all. Same with Jivi here. To me, the "turnaround" is more of a sign that the cousin did not even try to believe him, nor question anything at all the accusers brought up. It seems to me that the cousin had been influenced over a long period of time by lies and twisted half truths long before the framing was staged. I believe that is confirmed by all tose small informations concerning motivation and behaviour of the workers. This is just my impression and assumption. If the cousin has no future appearance in the storyline, i also would not have gone too deep in the finer details of this incident.
    Shalghar on
  41. 1. There is no evidence Jivi that tells the truth (e.g. the truth may be embarrassing or worse). 2. Expecting somebody to be a thief does not preclude putting them in charge - thievery may be a job requirement. 3. What dealings would a CRESCIAN privateer have with a FOREGN (Ulestrian) agricultural enterprise? Ulestri is a de-facto Crescian colony. Would it not to be expected for Crescians to milk Ulestri by any means possible, outright theft included? The cousin may have needed a thief for a foreman! For example, for tax cheating. Ulesry has normal money, and it is plausible that a Crescian can get away with anything in Ulestri, including things they would never get away with in Cresce. Compare Elka kissing up to Emil to her being extremely arrogant to an Ulestrian constable. In Ulestri Crescians feel free to do as they please, and we saw them doing precisely that.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  42. RyGuy has me hitting the Wiki on Jivi and Regina Flask, now. Thank you. Thank you, MMM on the barnacular history. I know many ancient Greeks thought barnacles ate their ships, and Medievals drew them with roots, but that could just be "educated" types "correcting" actual sailors and workmen. Educated Medievals decreased agricultural production by replicating the farming practices of the supposedly enlightened Romans and Greeks. See also "scientific socialism", or the geniuses from the EPA who poisoned an entire Colorado river because of their contempt for the supposedly ignorant locals. People with advanced degrees have certain advantages, but certain typical disadvantages, like voting for far more extreme political parties (PhDs and their equivalents were far more likely to vote fascist and communist back in the day, and the trend continues unto this day, internationally). Also, good theory on Crescians in Ulestry, but, though they're plausible, I shall dig in more literally to RyGuy's speculations first.
    Honzinator on
  43. @Honzinator: "PhDs and their equivalents"

    There exists a somewhat misnamed concept: "overeducated". What it really means is "indoctrinated". Substitution of indoctrination for education existed as long as learning itself.

    "were far more likely to vote fascist and communist"

    Depends on individual and area of SPECIALIZATION. Sir Peter Ustinov written in this point in his memoirs (presumably, before he himself succumbed to globalism).

    "EPA who poisoned an entire Colorado river"

    A bureaucracy merely "following the rules" blindly will do that.

    "Educated Medievals decreased agricultural production by replicating the farming practices of the supposedly enlightened Romans and Greeks."

    All agriculture is strictly locale-specific. In absence of enough knowledge to build theories, empirical knowledge is the only way to go, but it must be applied only in the conditions it was derived from.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  44. @Honzinator: "educated" types "correcting" actual sailors and workmen"

    The same kind of "scholars" who stated that human races cannot interbreed - despite the available evidence to the contrary. He who scraped barnacles of the hull (like Jivi) would know more about barnacles than the one who merely writes about them.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  45. Whoa, so Jivi, despite knowing better (I just believe him in this since I don't expect a liar, not after his earlier "flashback", uses colloquial language. Perfectly fine, ain't it? Who would not? Once you know gobbledygook, it gets easier not to use it unless it makes sense, or to show off. Is there really need to argue about something everyone can find out every day, simply by listening to people? :o
    Corbie on
  46. The first question to ask is why you would assume that barnacles living in a fantasy world where the clouds literally come down to screw fish-women would have the same habit/ecology as barnacles in this world, despite no other animal type being exact analogous so far (I mean have you seen their dogs and crows?). Additionally, and possibly more appropriately, many barnacle species bore their anchors directly into wooden hulls when attaching, be it part of themselves or just a stalk, which while rarely damaging on its own can still lead to deleterious effects when the colony continues to explosively increase in size (further encouraging regular removal). As boats in this world are mostly of a wooden variety, this type of gradual "eating away" as colonies grow, are removed, and then grow again is something to keep in mind.
    LegoTechnic on
  47. An MMM comment war: >"Barnacles do not "eat" anything!" time passes >"Substitution of indoctrination for education existed as long as learning itself." god bless unsounded comments
    Y on
  48. @LegoTechnic: "many barnacle species bore their anchors directly into wooden hulls when attaching"

    Specific examples please. I have seen barnacles on stone and steel. Cannot bore into those. Even limpets (whose "teeth" are reputedly the hardest animal-made matter known) just scrape bacterial film off these surfaces, without going deeper.

    "have you seen their dogs and crows"

    Aw, come on, Siwl referred to mules, without any donkeys or horses in Kasslyne!

    "boats in this world are mostly of a wooden variety"

    Ashley provided no statistics. Kasslynites do build ships of STEEL, no less, although there is barely any coal in Kasslyne. How can they do it is impossible to guess, since even preindustrial ironmaking denudes vast areas of trees for charcoal production, never mind mass production of steel for shipbuilding. They would have run out of trees before a fleet of steel ships was built.
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  49. MMM is just an usual commenter there, he's made his own chair and tabletalk, like in a forum. That's not bad. He does not make light banter, just pecks something off (on his own perspective) and carves there in, he may be quite OCD to that. Answering him is completely optional, and sometimes it's interesting. Other times, not so much. To each his own, I'd say. Anyway, don't hate the barnacles, Jivi! XD
    Luchucholo on
  50. @MMM i'm pretty sure that from what we've seen of jivi's dreams ships are made from wood. it's likely any steel ships are little pymaric speedboats since pymary can only work in shallow water.
    Asshat on
  51. In response to - "There exists a somewhat misnamed concept: "overeducated". What it really means is "indoctrinated". Substitution of indoctrination for education existed as long as learning itself." - you are correct, sirrah. Half-educated halfwits then, like so many of our modern liberal arts folks who think themselves the equal of the Oxbridge scholars of old. Also, and I cannot believe I am writing this in any context, Asshat is almost certainly correct about metal boats an pymary, and not just because I thought but didn't write the same thing, only worse put.
    Honzinator on
  52. @MMM: How are you not banned yet? Every comic, for years, you're posting this autist crap.
    Fake on
  53. @Fake: "How are you not banned yet?"

    Beats me! Sour grapes much?
    Mad'Monster'Maniac on
  54. I came here for jivis character development and ended up with MMMs....
    .... on
  55. @Fake: because he did not insult people like this? (To be honest, I don't know since I don't read all comments, but I don't remember such an occasion.)
    I don't know why MMM posts as he does, and I surely won't make an assumption, so please understand my comment only in general: Being autistic is nothing anyone can choose, and autists are people like all of us and to be respected like all of us, not used as a derogative and thereby made one.
    Corbie on
  56. 1. There is no evidence Jivi that tells the truth (e.g. the truth may be embarrassing or worse). --------------------------------------- Since Jivis story is the only data we have and it is "proven" by a flashback (although i know that any kind of testimony based on remembering subjectively is to be treated with extreme caution) i can only use the data i have been given. --------------------------------------------------- 2. Expecting somebody to be a thief does not preclude putting them in charge - thievery may be a job requirement. ------------------------- Be that as it may but the act of thievery framed upon Jivi was directed against the boss and owner and not in favour of the boss or enterprise. ---------------------------- 3. What dealings would a CRESCIAN privateer have with a FOREGN (Ulestrian) agricultural enterprise? ---------------------- Who cares ? Family business transcends nationalities. Before the reunion 1989 there were many families in western and eastern germany, living in vastly different economical and cultural systems but still being family (one of the former GDR residents is my best man so i assume my informations are valid) so i do not see any valid argument against this part of Jivis story. ------------------------ All in all, while there may be weak points in that sidestory, i still believe it is sufficiently credible to understand Jivi, at least to my liking. Then again i do not expect forensic and scientific preciseness from a comic or any other form of "light" entertainment media. Would i do so i had lots to rant about that utterly silly and boring, highly overrated and overhyped trilogy of underdeveloped primitive storylines called "lords of the rings". ;)
    Shalghar on